6:24 p.m.
I recently had occasion to set up a Linux - Debian - machine (for work,
to be sure). I'm having trouble finding a Web browser I can stand to
use.
One of the ones I tried was netsurf (via apt-get install, installing
netsurf-common and netsurf-gtk - the About window says "NetSurf 3.10
(24th May 2020)"). As I have, unfortunately, come to expect from
almost everything, it defaulted to reverse video. The notable part is
that I was unable to find any way to change that; most of the browsers
I've run into on Linux have had some way to configure colours, usually
including a way to tell it "use these colours no matter what the page
tries to set". With netsurf, though, I couldn't find even the former,
much less the latter.
Did I just miss something, or is netsurf not capable of being told what
colours to use?
Mouse
9:39 p.m.
On 28 Jul 2022 as I do recall,
Mouse wrote:
I recently had occasion to set up a Linux - Debian - machine (for
work,
to be sure). I'm having trouble finding a Web browser I can stand to
use.
One of the ones I tried was netsurf (via apt-get install, installing
netsurf-common and netsurf-gtk - the About window says "NetSurf 3.10
(24th May 2020)"). As I have, unfortunately, come to expect from
almost everything, it defaulted to reverse video. The notable part is
that I was unable to find any way to change that; most of the browsers
I've run into on Linux have had some way to configure colours, usually
including a way to tell it "use these colours no matter what the page
tries to set". With netsurf, though, I couldn't find even the former,
much less the latter.
Did I just miss something, or is netsurf not capable of being told what
colours to use?
Netsurf has a default CSS file that sets up various colours, e.g.
ins { color: green; text-decoration: underline; }
I can't see that it explicitly sets the main body colour (although it
does for text areas), but you could presumably edit additional
definitions in. To be honest I don't know that this would override the
colours set up in the page that it is being asked to interpret, though.
It's not something that any RISC OS browser has ever been asked to do,
to my knowledge.
I'd be rather concerned about why everything on your system is for some
reason defaulting to inverse video and needs to be over-ridden to make
it usable...
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
USER ERROR: replace user and press any key to continue.
10:22 p.m.
> [I tried netsurf]. As I have, unfortunately, come to expect
from
> almost everything, it defaulted to reverse video. [...]
[default CSS] To be honest I don't know that this would override
the
colours set up in the page [...]
I wouldn't expect default CSS to override the page's colours. That's
what defaults are all about, after all. (I wouldn't even _want_ to
override the page's colours, except that most pages actively specify
reverse-video colours. I don't understand why.)
I'd be rather concerned about why everything on your system is
for
some reason defaulting to inverse video and needs to be over-ridden
to make it usable...
It defaults to reverse video presumably for the same reason everything
else does these days: that seems to be what most people have come to
expect. (It's baffling to me why; the one UX person I've spoken with
about the issue actually agreed with me.)
The "make it usable" part needs, of course, to have a "for me"
qualifier attached; I had assumed that was implicitly understood here,
as of course it should be for pretty much any user-usability issue. I
suspect most people have become accustomed to having large areas of
bright on their screens. Maybe they like eyestrain? [Only half
sarcastic....]
Of course, it doesn't matter much what the defaults are, as long as
it's easy to change them. It's the changing-them part that led me to
write to the list.
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1:29 p.m.
On 28 Jul 2022 as I do recall,
Mouse wrote:
>> [I tried netsurf]. As I have, unfortunately, come to expect
from
>> almost everything, it defaulted to reverse video. [...]
> [default CSS] To be honest I don't know that this would override the
> colours set up in the page [...]
I wouldn't expect default CSS to override the page's colours. That's
what defaults are all about, after all.
I can't think of any other way of doing it in Netsurf (and I didn't test
that suggestion, so I don't even know if it would have worked
anyway....)
(I wouldn't even _want_ to override the page's colours,
except that
most pages actively specify reverse-video colours. I don't understand
why.)
So by 'reverse video' you mean DTP-style display, with dark text on a
white page? Yes, that is the default for everything other than
terminal-style screens (which I now understand is what you are trying to
emulate).
StrongED (bitmap display text editor) used to have a special 'inverse
video' light-on-dark colour option to emulate the old BBC Micro
programming display, but I can't even find that option in the latest
versions, and I don't know of any other application that offers it -
RISC OS has been using cream/white/grey backgrounds with lines drawn
over them as the default for all user interfaces since the desktop first
came in circa 1990, and it has never been terminal-based, so I'm afraid
applications originating in RISC OS simply don't take that type of
display into account. :-(
[snip]
The "make it usable" part needs, of course, to have a
"for me"
qualifier attached; I had assumed that was implicitly understood here,
as of course it should be for pretty much any user-usability issue. I
suspect most people have become accustomed to having large areas of
bright on their screens. Maybe they like eyestrain? [Only half
sarcastic....]
I find that fine white lines against a dark background tend to dance
before my eyes - particularly obvious when graphics designers use this
style on printed pages (and even worse of course when they do it on a
*textured* background, which may look good on their monitors but is all
but unreadable in a colour magazine), but I just generated an HTML page
of Lorem ipsum using a white-on-black colour scheme, and it's pretty
hard to read in Netsurf. It probably depends on your OS/monitor set-up.
Of course, it doesn't matter much what the defaults are, as long
as
it's easy to change them. It's the changing-them part that led me to
write to the list.
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Netsurf doesn't offer any mechanism to
force HTML pages to change their colour scheme. It doesn't offer all
that many customisations anyway (you can't even tell it not to load
images, so far as I'm aware). I think it was mainly written to be
small and fast, rather than highly flexible.
So there probably isn't any way of getting it to meet your needs.
(Though I'm not a developer and don't know what is actually possible!)
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
He who hesitates is last.
3 p.m.
> (I wouldn't even _want_ to override the page's colours,
except that
> most pages actively specify reverse-video colours. I don't
> understand why.)
So by 'reverse video' you mean DTP-style display, with dark text on a
white page? Yes, that is the default for everything other than
terminal-style screens (which I now understand is what you are trying
to emulate).
Well, I wouldn't put it that way. I like it not because that's how
text terminals worked; I like it because I'm using self-luminant
displays, displays that give off light of their own (as opposed to
reflective displays, which reflect ambient light rather than generating
their own light). Text terminals also use - used, I guess I should say
these days - self-luminant displays, so light-on-dark made sense for
them just as much as it does for me now.
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Netsurf doesn't offer any
mechanism to
force HTML pages to change their colour scheme.
Oh well. At least I don't need to struggle with it trying to find such
a mechanism, then. Thank you!
So there probably isn't any way of getting it to meet your
needs.
(Though I'm not a developer and don't know what is actually
possible!)
Well, of course, I could fetch the source and hack on that. I've been
hesitant to try that, expecting that understanding it enough to make
those changes would take longer than finding some other way to address
the issue...though I'm having enough trouble finding a suitable browser
for that system that I'm beginning to wonder if maybe I won't have to
do something like that with _some_ browser.
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4:08 p.m.
I'm struggling to post to this list, so hopefully this will work.
Harriet Bazley wrote:
> Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Netsurf doesn't offer any mechanism to
> force HTML pages to change their colour scheme. It doesn't offer all
> that many customisations anyway (you can't even tell it not to load
> images, so far as I'm aware). I think it was mainly written to be
> small and fast, rather than highly flexible.
There is a media query which allows a web browser to pick up the preferred
colour scheme (light mode/dark mode) from the OS (or the browser itself).
NetSurf does not implement this, so everything defaults to light mode.
That would help with sites which support dark mode (via the media query or
otherwise), however still leaves the rest of the web in light mode.
You can change the default CSS but it is only going to help if the page
itself doesn't specify colours.
If the page specifies colours then they will be used by NetSurf - there's
no way of overriding them (beyond light mode/dark mode - and even then
you're still using colours specified by the page). I'm not sure how you'd
even go about implementing this.
6:37 p.m.
[forwarded from Chris Young, as I didn't see the CC'd message turn up on
the list]
---------- Begin forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:08:46 +0100
From: Chris Young <cdyoung(a)gmail.com>
To: Harriet Bazley <lists(a)bazleyfamily.co.uk>
CC: netsurf-users(a)netsurf-browser.org
Subject: Re: Possible to get it out of reverse video?
I'm struggling to post to this list, so hopefully this will work.
Harriet Bazley wrote:
> Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Netsurf doesn't offer any mechanism to
> force HTML pages to change their colour scheme. It doesn't offer all
> that many customisations anyway (you can't even tell it not to load
> images, so far as I'm aware). I think it was mainly written to be
> small and fast, rather than highly flexible.
There is a media query which allows a web browser to pick up the preferred
colour scheme (light mode/dark mode) from the OS (or the browser itself).
NetSurf does not implement this, so everything defaults to light mode.
That would help with sites which support dark mode (via the media query or
otherwise), however still leaves the rest of the web in light mode.
You can change the default CSS but it is only going to help if the page
itself doesn't specify colours.
If the page specifies colours then they will be used by NetSurf - there's
no way of overriding them (beyond light mode/dark mode - and even then
you're still using colours specified by the page). I'm not sure how you'd
even go about implementing this.
----------- End forwarded message -----------
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
7:47 p.m.
> If the page specifies colours then they will be used by NetSurf
-
> there's no way of overriding them [...]. I'm not sure how you'd
> even go about implementing this.
Personally? My first reaction is to look at the display code and have
it used fixed colours instead of the colours that come from the page,
from the default CSS, from wherever.
That probably wouldn't be the best answer; it's just the most obvious
answer that occurs to me.
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7 comments
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participants (3)
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Mouse